CarcCentral Expansion design ideas
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CKorfmann
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« on: July 21, 2009, 05:11:34 PM »

May I suggest that we split this thread in two?  Expansion ideas and logistical ideas.
Not that I mean to be impatient, but I thought it would be easier to start a new thread to explore our expansion ideas than it would for a Mod to split the current thread.  If someone thinks this is not the place for it, it could easily be moved.  Here's what we have so far:

Okay, first thing this morning I received my reply from Jay. He pretty much is his own PR department and has already stated that we can propose to him directly and he will negotiate for us. He doesn't intend to stop reading and creating something different. We've already been through this with Jay and basically he will publish what we give him if he and HiG approve of it. That being said, here is the gist of what he replied to me:

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Thanks for your note - send my best wishes to Gantry Rogue.

As for the following, whatever is proposed must be approved by Hans in Glück in Germany.

1) How many new tiles should we include in our expansion? In other words, should we propose one 12-tile sheet, or something smaller or larger? What are the reasonable new tile limits that you and Hans im Glück would accept?

Well, 12 is the small box - for the medium box, it could be 24-30, I think

2) What type of expansion is Rio Grande Games willing to publish? As we are planning to draw ideas from the various fan expansions we have created over the past four years, we want to know how advanced such an expansion can be. The Games Quarterly #11 expansion simply added 12 new tiles into the game without any rules. While we'd like to include some new tiles that don't require rules, we'd also like to know if we can include some tiles with new mechanics; something on par with the Cathars expansion by Spielbox.

We will look at either.

3) If we are allowed to introduce new mechanics into the game, should we stick with one new mechanic or could we introduce two or more? In this respect, the recent publication of Cult, Siege & Creativity comes to mind. We wouldn't mind publishing an expansion that introduced 4 tiles of one mechanic, 4 tiles of another mechanic, and 4 tiles that don't require any new rules.

I think 2 or 3 is OK, if they are somehow connected.

4) Is there any specific mechanic that Rio Grande Games personally would like or prefer us to publish? Conversely, is there something we should not attempt to include in our proposed expansion? More importantly, perhaps, is there any specific idea or mechanic that would improve our chances of acceptance by Hans im Glück or publication by Rio Grande Games?

Using anything related to warfare of fighting will likely be rejected.

Okay, so there you have it. The summary:
1) Jay would consider a small (12-tile) or large (24- or 30-tile) expansion, but it has to be approved by Hans im Glück
2) New mechanics are fine, but limit them to 2 or 3 new mechanics, nothing more, but keep them in the same rough theme.
3) Mechanics relating to warfare probably would be rejected by HiG.

With these conditions, Jay leaves us pretty open to user contributions. I still think that authors and other people should propose what they feel are the best expansions and then I will make a poll with two votes each to try and determine the winner(s) that we can then use to create this expansion. Jay sounds open to the idea so let's impress him with something great. No catapult mechanics need apply!

Okay, I'm adding In the Stocks and Lord of the Manor to the list. I feel Ghettos probably isn't what Novelty would prefer and I don't really think we need a second whole-filler expansion as we already have one with A&M. That being said, I can include it on the list if people feel it should be on there. I added Lord of the Manor because others earlier also expressed the desire to add it to the list and I, too, like the little expansion. In fact, it was the first expansion I ever printed and pasted on my CS&C tiles!

List of proposed expansions for the poll:
1. Seasons
2. Mountains (with some modifications)
3. In the Stocks (2-tile edition)
4. Lord of the Manor (with possible bail-out rule)
5. mathguy Gamma (with some tiles possibly switched with Winter and Thanksgiving 2008 or a different mathguy expansion's tiles)
6. Let's make a new expansion!
7. I don't think we should make an expansion to publish

Perhaps we should start listing proposals for a completely new expansion also.  Something several of us could work on together.  After all, it is #6 on the list.
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 09:12:51 AM »

Moved here as it is for all members of the Forum to be able to participte in this. It could even inspire new authors !!
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2009, 12:47:32 AM »

After adding Wells, we have so far:
1. Seasons
2. Mountains (with some modifications)
3. In the Stocks (2-tile edition)
4. Lord of the Manor (with possible bail-out rule)
5. mathguy Gamma (with some tiles possibly switched with Winter and Thanksgiving 2008 or a different mathguy expansion's tiles)
6. Wells
7. Let's make a new expansion!
8. I don't think we should make an expansion to publish

That being added, does anyone else have any expansions/ideas to suggest or should we put these to a vote? There are really only 6 fan expansions here and while they all are good ones, I'm not sure if any of them are great ones, at least to represent CarcCentral. Let me hear some more feedback and I think I will post the poll on Monday. That means that we have three more days to add things, and then we need to decide what to do. Happy suggesting!
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 09:52:17 AM »

I was thinking about Wheat fields and Lavender fields.  Not sure how they'll feel about the double turn concept apart from the builder, but I think they merit consideration.  The designs are really nice.  

I read an interview with Jay Tummelson online and I thought it might offer some good insites into how he thinks.  Pay special attention to comments about the publishers offering suggestions about game changes.  It's an interesting read.  I think it might answer some of our potential questions without bothering him or waiting for an answer.

HERE is a nice picture of Jay too.  It is always nice to see who you're talking too.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 10:28:48 AM by CKorfmann » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2009, 11:24:09 AM »

Thanks for the link. I must admit that I imagined Jay to be more in his...well, 30s for some reason. I guess Jay just sounds like such a young name. Whatever, he still sounds agreeable in his Dice Tower interview. Concerning our expansion, I especially found these two quotes helpful for all of us:

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Tom: Over the years, you've seen a lot of games come through. What tips would you give to prospective game designers?

Jay: Be willing to give up your ego when you offer a game to a publisher. This is especially important after the publisher has agreed to publish your game. When a publisher agrees to do one of your games, he really wants it to be successful and is not trying to "ruin" it when he makes changes. Therefore, if you want someone else to take all the costs and risks associated with publishing your game, you have to accept that they will make changes to make the game successful; and you have to be willing to accept their changes.; If you feel your game is "perfect" as it is and needs no changes, you are better off to take the costs and risks for yourself and self-publish.

Tom: Do designers often argue with you when you make changes to games?

Jay: As I work primarily with German publishers, I have had little direct contact with designers during the development process. What I hear is that the good successful designers accept the changes offered by developers, but the others often argue - to the detriment of the game and the process. Of course, reasonable discussion is encouraged, but when the designer constantly refuses to consider suggestions or always tries to take the game back to his original design, it does not work.

In a gist, it pretty much says that even if we create a perfect expansion, Jay still may change some or all of it since we aren't publishing. But since I have no desire to self- or group-publish anything with Jay's approval, I think that is a risk we shall all have to take.
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2009, 11:31:14 AM »

Agreed, and under the circumstances, I think it might be best when we make the proposal to say something like, "Here is what we have and here are a few variations we tossed around."  If we don't try to offer him something "perfect" it might work better.  In other words, if we disagree on something or if we are having a hard time choosing between two different concepts, maybe he can make the choice for us.
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2009, 07:28:29 PM »

I'd also like to recommend Mills and Bakeries, although the trade goods might be a disadvantage? While seasons is also very good, the board and little rectangles (can't remember what they're called) might exclude it from being a  12-tile expansion (it wouldn't fit into the small box). Maybe a new expansion might be the most convenient solution, but making an expansion just for the sake of making one might not produce the sort of quality we want to display.

I agree that maybe Jay should have the final say.
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CKorfmann
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2009, 08:50:20 PM »

Well, according to Jay's response, we aren't necessarily limited to a 12-tile expansion.  That's why some of us feel like Seasons is a good prospect.
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2009, 08:59:11 PM »

Well, according to Jay's response, we aren't necessarily limited to a 12-tile expansion.  That's why some of us feel like Seasons is a good prospect.

I'm not saying it's not good, I agree, it would be good for a larger expansion, but if HiG does limit us to a smaller expansion, then Seasons might not work so well...
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 02:03:40 PM »

I've just posted the poll (a day late) in the Voting Station. Go on over to here to vote on the expansion you want to see made official. If your suggestion isn't on the list, post on this forum and we can probably still add it. But we have been at this discussion for three weeks now and it is time to make some progress on it. Cheers!
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2009, 02:26:52 PM »

I think you're right.  It's kind of stalled lately.
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2009, 04:11:38 PM »

How about Treasure Hunt? I think that one could be popular...
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CKorfmann
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2009, 08:24:09 PM »

I'm curious about what you all think about actually making the tiles when we have a "winner".  I was thinking that maybe we could have one of our better tile craftsman make the winning set (after any adjustments) so we could send it to Jay.  That way, if by any change Jay or the guys at HiG want to play test it, it's ready to go.  Does anyone agree or do you think digital images are good enough?

On a separate note, I was thinking about HiG and how they would view our stuff and wonder if they will accept "our" original artwork or if they will want to have it redone by their own artist(s).  It seems to me like they might want to do the latter for the sake of continuity.  That's something the author would need to be OK with too.
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