Carcassonne Central

Just thinking aloud here...

I have been receiving emails and messages asking me if I printed the custom tiles, and if so how, and would I be willing to ship it to Essex/Utah/Timbuktu and how much shipping would cost.  And I had to answer in the negative.  But that only goes to show that there is demand for the custom tiles.

So here's what I was thinking.  Lets say we pick 12 custom tiles (I have no idea how and I can always make new ones if required), approach Jay (RGG) with them and ask about the possibility of making a Carcassonne Central expansion (ala Games Quarterly expansion).  I haven't worked out the details, so suggestions welcome.  One thing we would need is for someone to be the central repository of the tiles and for him to mail out to everyone who orders them.  That person perferably would be Gantry...

Comments?

Not a bad idea, but I think there might be a lot of work involved to coinvince Jay to produce a Carcassonne Central expansion...

I would love to see the forest tiles produced 'officially'. Me thinks that there are plenty of uses for those :)

I'd certainly be wanting to place an order, but I suspect the cost would be much higher than a normal expansion.

I don't disagree that there might be a lot of work to convince Jay to produce a Carc Central expansion, but it has been done by Games Quarterly so there is a precedent.

Well, I would say "no new rules" at least for the first Carcassonne Central expansion, so that would rule out the forest tiles.  Also, there needs to be a full large expansion for the forest tiles in the first place to make them viable.

Well, I read from you guys that it costs 3 quid for CS&C excluding shipping.  A Games Quarterly magazine went for about US$6 (for example here (http://www.boardgames.ca/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22236)) which is slightly above 3 quid, but is still comparable.  Add a couple of bucks for shipping "across the pond" to Europe and it won't be that much more I would think.  Well, I guess we might have to cross that bridge when we get there... we still have to:

1. Pick out the 12 tiles, or make them if needed
2. Pitch the idea to Jay and convince to make an expansion
3. Discuss how the expansion is to be sold.  Internally, Gantry or someone needs to decide if we want to be responsible for the distribution (ala Games Quarterly) or if we prefer for RGG to distribute it, before we pitch the idea to Jay...

before we move on to marketing/advertising/pricing/etc.

I agree with Novelty that the forest is not suited to a small expansion.

I think a Carc Central mini-expansion is a good idea. Lately it seems like RGG needs some fresh ideas.

The tricky part is going to be the cashflow. It will cost Jay to produce the tiles, and money will be generated from the sale of the tiles. Is there going to be a profit, and where does the profit go?

I have no idea what the agreement was with Game Quarterly, but I hope we can get similar, if not the same terms as Game Quarterly, whatever those may be.

I've been thinking lately to add CC to my google ads account, that is, displaying ads in the forums and on the front page. Matt & I talked about it a few times, and we both agree that ads really are annoying.  However, that being said, there is something to be said for an easy way to raise money for expenses, prizes, or in this possible case, to fund an expansion. We would definitely keep the ad displays low-key and not overwhelming.  We haven't made a lot with our meeplepeople affiliate account yet.

On one hand, I think it would be a great idea to have a CC expansion, made by members, all profit either going to those who developed it or pumped back to cover expenses.  Personally I don't care to see a dime personally, I'd prefer to put any money made back into the site or back into funding further expansions etc. Do you all agree this should be a non-profit venture?

Let's agree also to hammer out a lot of details here before anyone approaches Jay. Everyone in this group I feel are great candidates for a CC expansion team.

I would be happy and willing to assist in anything on a non-profit basis personally (i.e. I would prefer CC to have any profit), although i'm not that good with tile design, but if I can assist, you have me on board. I am keen to get the user base expanded and I understand that websites do cost money to maintain. The more people we have the better the site will be.
The idea of a CC developed fan expansion is great, in that we can decide the tiles in the expansion, get 'official' tiles and get to write the 'official' rules! Right up my street :)

And make official arbritrations when the inevitable unanswered question comes up. ;D

I second everything Joff said :)

The idea of the CC expansion got me thinking regarding variants/expansions that could well work with a CC 12-tile 'official' release, which is why I stuck with small mini-expansions that I am currently developing. I have also been having brief chats with Novelty regarding this (via PM). We think this subject would be more useful out in the open, amongst the Admins and Authors of CC.

Novelty's initial assessment of a CC expansion was to have just tiles and no 'new' expansion tiles, similar to the ones I am currently working on. I feel that if we ever were able to market an expansion (which would be a long shot, let's face it), missing out on the chance to have published something completely different, that requires a ruleset (even if you could point people to it via CC) would be a wasted opportunity. After all, you would probably get only one chance and I would love to have an 'official' Jousting Tournament ring (i'll be honest!) instead of my home-made version!

I made a statement to Novelty that that would be pointless to produce an expansion that added nothing 'new' in the way of rules, seeing as we could get most configurations of tiles via official expansions.

I do not think that GQ11 was pointless, far from it... we needed a tile with a road leading from the spring, and some of the tiles were indeed different configurations. That expansion at least added something useful, but in the process swallowed up more ideas for different tiles.

My point was,  how many more different configurations that would be useful can there be left? It's all very well making nice looking tiles that don't add anything different regarding configuration and rules, but that would be indeed pointless. I see Noveltys idea about a four way roundabout would be useful, and perhaps 3 way roads that are blocked on one side only might be ok (Cleric and Serf, Families), and a lake that has a road leading from it... but what then?    Edit: I can see now that there might be quite a few that exist.

I'm just putting the 'feelers' out, so we can all have a think about this and perhaps come up with new configurations that haven't been done before, have a real need to be included, but don't add anything in the way of rules. Although for every expansion released there will always be some point or another that will require arbitration. For instance, adding roads which tunnel underground (one which we already have officially) would lead to having to make an official statement about it eventually (think of the GQ11 pig herd... Jay was forced to make an decision (the wrong one, I might add  ;D) even though most presumed it was a pig herd, and still do).

One idea would be, to add the pretty tiles (i.e. one which had a Jousting Ring included on it, or a picture of stocks!  ;)) without giving any extra rules for it! You could use it as a regular tile or when one gets to make the inevitable arbitration statement, point back to the rules for using!

Thoughts?

Well, the first thing we need to figure out first before we even figure out the tiles is who's gonna be the person dealing with Jay and also dealing with the public.  I think Gantry should be this person, but he has not yet said whether he'd be up to this.

Basically, this person need not be Gantry, but for convienence should be based in North America.  That person has to:

1. Deal with Jay and hammer out any agreements with him
2. Get a whole lot of printed tiles from the supplier and pay the costs in advance
3. Advertise and market the CC expansion
4. Sell and ship the CC expansion

That's quite a bit of work, and it's not something that's done for a short time and then it disappears but could end up as a continuous thing.  It's a whole lot of responsibility.

Gantry?

1.  {ct Sure no problem

2.  :cf *cough*...

3.   :@ Advertising & marketing really depends on whether we need more than just some marketing to game stores who can do the selling for us plus ads on this site, or if we want to do more than this. Many options & levels of effort involved.

4.  {hw Online store is no problem other than potential cost which should be factored into the entire equation. The hands-on packing and shipping, we'll have to look at options as you know my time is a bit limited.

I think the next step would be an exploratory email to Jay to see what is his response... no point going further if he slams the door shut now.  We also need to ask if he has any strings attached if he gives the green light.  All yours, Gantry.

Edit: You've got his email Gantry?  PM me for it if you don't.

Yay, Thanks Gantry.  I hope we get a favourable reply soon.

Gents not sure but isnt there a copyright and royalties issue here. I mean who actually owns the rights to the "Carcassonne" brand. Im not sure and you would want to check this but I think that the owner has to be paid royalties for every unit sold, so you would need ot factor that into your expenses. Also you would need to get specific permission from the copyright holder to produce anything that would be sold, even if you arent out to make a profit. Loook at Paul McCartney he fleeces everyone each tiome a Beatles number is used.

I may be wrong on these things but it is worth checking first.

Steve, that's why we are going through Jay/RGG.  And according to the reply he sent to Gantry, it has to be approved by HiG.  I guess the next step is to ask how do we get approval from HiG - do we go through Jay/RGG?  Also we need to figure out how we are going to distribute it and negotiate with Jay to see if he is willing to pay for the tiles again.

I'm leaving for my holidays this weekend and have a lot to wrap up before then, so I won't get a chance to do any more CC stuff until I return on the 27th. So if you want, come up with something here and I'll send it when I return (I assume I'll continue to be Jay's single point of contact on this).

Gantry, do you have any preference for what to do regarding distribution and sales?  But before we even do that do we need to ask Jay if he's willing to pay for the tiles again?  And the "how" of getting approval from HiG still remains... that is now the critical issue IMO...

Novelty as I said you need to get the permission of the copyright holder, HiG not Jay. Jay has permission from HiG to produce Carc under license and must pay for the privelage, after all HiG is a business and must make a profit. So you need to consider that HiG will say yes but may want to take some royalities from whatever you charge. I might be wrong and he could want nothing which would be sweeeet.

Steve, Jay/RGG has been doing it for years for all the RGG stuff.  We just need to find out from him if he will be willing to do it for us (just like what he did for GQ11).  As for royalties, if we don't charge anything with the exception of postage, there might not be an issue of royalties.  We shall have to see once Gantry sorts that out with HiG.

As I mentioned before, I really don't like Frederic's blocked road with bushes tiles. I don't feel it adds anything new to the game that we didn't already have with junctions.

I do like the four-way roundabout, and I think that has enough mass appeal to include in a real expansion.

I think it would be good to have a mixture of tiles with new rules and tiles that don't require rules.

I think one or two river tiles with new configurations might be nice. Maybe the best two from the "Rivers 3" set that Novelty made?

I like the idea of including some of the 1-tile expansions that Joff has been cranking out recently.

As can be expected, part of me would like to see a gold mine or two, but I'm not sure how wise that is. I think it would be a bit of a waste to have only two gold mines. Probably better to leave them out and hope for another opportunity to release more tiles. (Maybe an expansion with 6 gold mines and 6 something else.)

Regarding distribution/sales, best would be to go through RGG and the game stores. That would make it easier for Jay to get reimbursed plus his portion of the profit, and he can forward our portion of the profit to Gantry. We could also have a few copies of the expansion sent to Gantry to sell to CarcCentral members. (Free copies for contributors?) I live close enough to Gantry that I could help with stuff.

Well, we know what *we* would like, but the question is, what does RGG perfer?  The important issues at the moment that we (Gantry) probably need to question Jay on are:

1. How do we get approval from HiG for the expansion?  Can we go through RGG?
2. Does Jay have any preference for distribution?

[I originally thought that a Carcassonne Central expansion, would be an expansion sold/distributed exclusively by CC/Gantry, just like the mini expansion was exclusive to GQ, and Cathars to Spielbox.   That however, would depend on what conditions Jay/RGG and HiG would impose.

Also, I think preorders, where you have to pay in advance, may probably secure some of the costs for the expansion.  If Jay/RGG is willing to pay for the balance or something, that would also go a long way.]

I'm back now!  Will digest this and request some more info from Jay on this.

One addition that might be useful to a new ‘GQ11’ type CC expansion is a Big-Box I&C ‘crcr’ tile, to replace the RGG I&C ‘crcr’ tile. The Big-Box I&C
'crcr' tile clearly splits the road in two.

Okay, I almost forgot about this! Emailed today:


As well, can I suggest that this thread be limited to the correspondence around the business end of the project, and a new thread be started for the mechanics of the expansion?

Here's hoping for a good response from Jay!

Answers bolded (is that really a verb?) for emphasis...

Very interesting...

I suppose we must now decide exactly what we are going to propose to HiG and whether we go through Jay or straight to HiG.

Personally, I recommend going through Jay.  It's like having your pal Donald Trump in your corner while asking for a mortgage.

Did everyone here understand question #6? If not, I would expect some sort of financial outlay, whether it be to share the pre-sales production costs, advertising, what have you.  I would be totally shocked if it cost us nothing to get into other than just a good expansion.

I suppose I could run the retail sales portion, unless someone else on the team has the capacity & experience?

I agree with going through Jay.  He would probably be the best person to go along with.

Question #6 is a bit vague from my point of view as well.  I think you phrased it better in your post above as a statement (instead of a question) and I think from Jay's comment he expects to foot the bill himself (at least initially) while we handle the retail sales portion.  I think you'll need to really clarify it with him.

I don't have the capacity or experience to run an online retail sales thing, but one thing we might want to have is pre-orders.  That would give us an indication how popular the expansion is going to be.

I understand "distributed by RGG" to mean that it would filter down through the usual channels to the various game stores. CarcCentral would be just one of many retailers.

Wow, somehow this excellent suggestion became orphaned nearly eight months ago! What a loss. We made such progress and then Christmas came along and everyone forgot about it. What a shame. Perhaps the sparse presence of Gantry has aided in this failed endeavour. Well, perhaps it should be restarted.


Yes, CarcCentral would be one of the many retailers, but we would be the only one that holds credit for the expansion. Novelty contacted me today to suggest revitalizing this lost thread, and while I may not be the perfect person for the job, I think that together we can get something worked out.

1. Distribution
First off, I think a great way to create our own CarcCentral store would to appoint someone very trustworthy to become the site store manager and treasurer. This should probably be a moderator, site owner, or someone else well-established. I propose that our method of distribution (from this specific site) be via PM-based PayPal exchanges, much in the manner that Hanno and Z-Man do it on BoardGameGeek. They have been distributing Agricola expansions for months via simple PayPal payments and PM's confirming your order. Really, it is a simple, easy, and hard to miss means of selling. Alternatively, CarcCentral could set up an eBay account exclusively for the sale of CarcCentral merchandise. Both of these are just suggestions, but distribution was one problem we had.

2. Expansion Details
I've been working hard the past three months designing a card game which I plan to play test and propose before the end of the year. This has taught me that companies prefer to have a game sample already made before they consider it seriously. We need an expansion, or compilation, that has 12 tiles and represents the best CarcCentral has to offer because, remember, this will be an advertisement for our website as much as an expansion to Carcassonne. While our primary goal is to add to the greatness of the game, we can't forget that it will also reflect our own site and become part of the Carcassonne Canon (and be included in Matt Harper's CAR!). I'd suggest a group of a few authors, specifically, to search and reflect on expansions form the past few years and choose the absolute best we have. Nothing too complicated, nothing to advanced, and make sure there are a few tiles that require no additional rules. I'd suggest, from his many contributions to the site, that Novelty take the lead on this wing of the project.

3. Contact and Negotiation
We've noticed and all realized that Jay has a lot on his plate and can't always do everything for us. However, I also believe that he is the best contact we as a group have to Hans im Glück. Rio Grande Games requires permission from HiG to publish any expansion, even if they are not published in Germany. However, due to complaints and confusion over the Cathars in 2006, all expansions, from Hans im Glück or Rio Grande Games, may be published by the other company. That does not mean that any expansion we produce will be released in Germany or Europe, but it hypothetically can be. Thus said, it makes since that we have to talk to HiG and I think Jay, also realizing that his company isn't as fast at adapting games as some of his competitors, would willingly act as our go-between if we proposed a good enough expansion. If our competition is Wheel of Fate and Catapult, I think we have a good chance at success, but we need someone who is willing to propose ideas to Jay at RGG and work through him with HiG. I can do this, but I won't make a move until I know that we have something solid to propose. We want Jay to go "WOW" before trying to get the much larger HiG to say something similar!

That's it for now. We need someone willing to manage a future CarcCentral store service, a group of authors to sort through and find good expansion tiles for inclusion (and to organize them and clean them up well enough to aesthetically work with the official expansions), and someone to manage negotiations with Jay and HiG. I'll take the last job, but I want the group of authors to do the majority of the work. I want to propose it and be done with it. Let's get this ball rolling!

With regards to 1., we do not have any mods or admins in the US.  Gantry is in Canada, but I don't think he's ideal (at the moment) to fill that role.  Matt is in Germany, Steve is in England, Tobias is in Sweden, all of which are HiG territory, so that rules them out running the CarcStore (or whatever) from there.

With regards to 2. we need some direction from RGG.  What are they looking for and what are they willing to publish?  Tiles with nothing new ala GQ11?  Or something that adds a new mechanic of some sort, e.g. Cathars?  Obviously that has to be sorted before the authors can even do anything.  Back to 3. :)

Okay, okay. I'll send Jay an email and hope he replies with something other than: We'll just have to see what you come up with.

So Novelty, where are you? Obviously not the United States...and you kill people for a living...where does that place you...? Hmm. A mystery indeed.

Okay, so moderators are out for the job of treasurer. All we really need is someone who wouldn't mind getting a bunch of tile payments and then shipping off the tiles. Payment would probably just be through PayPal. I don't know where any profits would go. I mean, Jay would have to sell the items to someone at CarcCentral and then that person would need to be reimbursed. Any additional proceeds would need to go to site maintenance, I'm guessing, but I'm not entirely sure who manages the server space and domain. Matt or Gantry I'd guess since this is their site. We probably couldn't undercut Jay's price too much since it would probably be distributed as a mini-expansion, since no US-based magazine currently distributes expansions right now. Speaking of which, Games Quarterly may be dead, but we need a new games magazine here. All the world seems to have right now is Spielbox! That is a big job for one magazine...and the magazine's only in German! Anywho, someone here said that they lived near Gantry, so maybe the two of them could do the job in coordination. That's my suggestion.

Agreed, I am not the idea person at this time.

OK, here's my two cents on this one... though it looks more like a nickel!  ;)  Forgive me, the ideas are flowing.

Excellent idea and seems very doable.  What does GQ have to offer the Carcassonne world and HiG that we don't?  If they can do it, so can we.  Here are my comments/questions:

So does this mean that Jay would ship everything from "his house" or simply that it would have his name on it (RRG) and we'd ship it from "our house."  If the latter is true, I'd strongly recommend that we have two shipping locations.  One in the States and one in Europe.  Shipping from the U.S. to Canada is simple and doesn't really cost that much more.  I'm not familiar with how things work in Europe, but someone there would be.  People elsewhere, like Australia (Sorry Nov!) would just have to pay a little extra.  Or, perhaps we could have a third, smaller "hub" down under.  Jay could ship them in bulk to each "hub" and they could be mailed out individually from there.  All transactions could be handled through PayPal and the "hub owners" could pay for shipping costs and supplies for individual orders with a PayPal debit card (on the same account, of course) so it wouldn't cost them anything personally except the time investment.  

Personally, I think this person could be anywhere in the world and a Mod or Admin would be an excellent choice.  They could process orders and send the shipping addresses to the European and American "hubs".

Definitely count me in!  At the very least, I am willing to help with the selection process and anything I could do additionally to make it work.  As to the former, I'm willing to be the U.S. "hub" if that's the way things pan out and that's how we decide to work it.  I believe that you all will find me to be a man of integrity who can be trusted to do what we have suggested to the best of my ability.  As to my availability, my wife and I work for a Christian children's home as live-in "parents".  We live there with the children for two weeks and are off and at home for two weeks (unless we travel for some of it).  I'm frequently bored while at home (thus the amount of time I have to devote to CC) and my wife has been suggesting I find some kind of hobby or get a part-time job or something to fill the extra time.  I would love to do this!  Keep in mind that I'd be unavailable for two weeks at a time, but almost completely available the opposite two weeks (Tuesday to Tuesday).  The firewall on my computer at work limits me considerably.  I'm surprised I'm able to access this site there and that could come to an end.  I can't even receive my personal email there, but I have considered purchasing a wireless internet card for my laptop and having this responsibility might help make that decision.  The longest someone would possibly have to wait to have their order shipped would be two weeks.  However, we could make everyone aware of this at the beginning and I could keep some sets with me and ready to ship from the children's home in case of emergencies.  If you all would be comfortable with this, I'm game!

If we're collecting authors, I think we should recruit Kevin Graham too.

Mods, if you decide to split this to a new thread, here is a good spot!  :)
As to which tiles we should submit:
I whole-heartedly agree with Scott.  I believe there are two obvious choices.  The first is Families/Family Feud.  A 12-tile set of city tiles with red & yellow pennants would be very easy to do.  They would introduce new rules, but very simple ones that don't require a lot of explanation and could easily offer some new tile arrangements with a more vanilla flavor, if you will, as Scott and Whaley seem to favor.  Plus, it seems like an easy sell to HiG.  I'd be surprised if Families (as we know it) wasn’t something that is sitting on one of their idea boards somewhere.

While my personal favorite single tile is Solazy's Coliseum tile (though I've never been able to get a hold of him for permission to bring them here), Joff's Medieval expansion is the second obvious choice for me.  I believe Joff's excellent work represents the quality that the folks here at CarcCentral can bring to the table.  Each small expansion is simple to understand and people could pick and choose between them if they wanted.  I would, however, suggest a few substitutions.  I'm not sure four Stocks tiles and three Gallows tiles would best suit our purpose here, so I'd suggest just two of each.  As a substitute, I'd like to see two Lord of the Manor tiles (one city and one farm) added to it as well as the two Cleric and Serf token/tiles (replacing one of the Chivalry tiles) as the last two.  Just my opinion…  Perhaps it's too many new rules.  It could just as easily be left alone.

My ideas are seldom perfect so another option might be for Gantry and Matthew to pick their 6 or so favorites and have the authors vote on them with discussion.  

IMHO the perfect 6&6 expansion would be Ghettos & Gold Mines.  Maybe this could be our second offering if we get that chance.

Another idea I have for a subsequent offering (and maybe this would be better moved elsewhere) would be to offer “kits” to use with the two Creativity tiles that Jay produced with the CS&C set.  Since Creativity is an RRG offering, I wonder if we might not even be able to bypass HiG on this one, though it doesn’t sound like it.  Basically, we’d sell stickers of two-tile expansions that people could stick on their two blank tiles.  We’d also include any meeples, chits, or tokens that might be necessary.  These could include; JPutt’s excellent Wizards and Witches expansion, the Wormhole that JPutt and I are currently finishing up, any of Joff’s Medieval expansions compressed to two tiles, the Cleric & Serf token/tiles, the Roman Road and Temple, The Grim Reeple, Lord of the Manor in two tiles, The Pope of Avignon, Drought and Pestilence in two tiles, as well as any number of  our own, original, vanilla tile arrangements.  We could also throw in a couple random tiles with any one of our “no-tile” expansions like two wheat-resource city tiles with chits and Hog Roast, two tower base tiles with The Black Tower, or a cloister and a shrine tile with The Missionary.

There are my thoughts.  If you’re actually still reading, my condolences and gratitude!  ;D

As Whaleyland said, we need to send RGG an idea that would WOW them.  My apologies in advance for being a wet blanket, but...

The Families idea is not original to Carc Central, and thus I don't think that should be the first expansion.  Although we have permission to distribute it as a fan-made expansion, we might run into issues if HiG/RGG publishes it (e.g. what if the original author demands some sort of compensation?).

Gold Mines would be a great idea, but the entire tile would have to be redesigned, as it (re)uses the graphic from H&G.  Also, it would maybe close the door for HiG/RGG to produce a future Mountains expansion of some sort and I'm not sure if that's something that they'd want.

The Cleric and Serf images were drawn by a fan, and if HiG/RGG use those, they'll probably have to pay royalties or something.  Again, I'm not sure if that's idea.  They *could* use the images from the wheel, but they don't need it to be a CarcCentral expansion for them to do that - and we can't use those images because we don't have a good version of them (i.e. not obstructed by the wheel).

The medieval expansion suffers from rules that are a bit overcomplicated for our first expansion.  I should think we want something that is simple to understand, yet amazing for the first expansion (and not something with pages and pages of rules).  Thematically the Medieval expansion tiles do go together and I think they might make a great subsequent expansion, but it may not be wise to have them as the first expansion.

I know I've gotten kudos on the Ghetto tiles, but as have been pointed out, "holes" doesn't normally occur that frequently in games unless one's playing with Forests/Fishermen/Mountains.  I'm not sure if Ghetto will be of any use as a first expansion.

I'm sorry to say this, but the wormhole is so thematically outside the character of Carcassonne, that I doubt HiG will even approve it!

Jabberworkcy's expansions (Roman Road/Temple, Drought & Pestilence, etc.) are way too powerful and could potentially unbalance the game and make them less fun.  That's not something that we might want to put out as a first expansion.

The Grim Reeple and Pope of Avignon both comes with specialised meeples, which we might want to avoid for a first expansion.  A sheet of tiles is easier to ship.  A meeple complicates things and we might want to leave them off the list until we are sure that things work smoothly.

Witches & Wizards and Lord of the Manor are great expansions, are good choices, but they don't make me go WOW.  The tiles are great, but the idea behind the tiles are just OK.  I guess these should be on the shortlist of the ideas that we propose to Jay, but it'd be nice if we can come up with something better.

Again, apologies to the authors of those expansions.  I'm not dissing your expansion as such, and am not trying to insult you or put you down.  However, I *DO* want to propose the best idea to Jay and to ensure the best chance of success for the CarcCentral expansion, and that's where I'm coming from.

Also, do the authors agree to give up all rights (ideas, graphics, etc.) for free/gratis to HiG/RGG in return for their idea being officially made into a CarcCentral expansion with no compensation of any sort?  That's the other thing we'll have to sort out.  For me, I'd be happy to have my idea officially made into a tile(s) and I don't expect a single cent for it.  In fact, I'll probably buy a whole truckload of of the expansion to give away out of pride ;D

I did not intend to offer the expansions that require meeples or extra pieces as our first submission.  If you read again, and I appologize, I know its long, I was suggesting some of those things as possible subsequent offerings if it goes well and Jay wants to do something again.  That's probably a topic for another day.

I agree that the author would probably be required to receive no compensation and I'm with you Nov.  I'd be happy just to have my expansion made.

For those of you thinking to yourself: "Hey, but I thought it up and I want to reap the profits!" Remember, we have dozens of expansions to choose from and the chances that any author, from here or elsewhere, is to get royalties for an expansion published by HiG or RGG is very slim. They have their own design and production teams that get paid salaries...they don't need your idea (although they maybe should consider it) and we don't need your specific expansion (even if it is really good) if you are going to fuss about royalties. That being said, I'd assume no one here would really mind getting their idea published without getting any compensation. I know I wouldn't care. I mean, hey, you're idea is getting published. That's awesome. You still get author credit (I assume) and can be listed on BGG as a game designer, which is pretty awesome!

Now, while we await a response from Jay, which I don't expect until Tuesday at the earliest, let's keep discussing expansions. One obvious solution to any/all of our problems is to create a new, unique expansion based exclusively on ideas thought up here, but simplified so that it a) does not require additional followers, figures, or pieces, and b) is not very complex. I also suggest, and forgot to do so last night, that we suggest only one major new rule. That rules out things like the individual Medieval Expansions by Joff. While they are fun and unique, trying to introduce players to up to 12 new rules/concepts is a bit much. It may not be just experienced Carcassonne players that buy this, it may be first-timers looking for a small, cheap expansion. I bought GQ11 when I bought my Big Box and it was mostly because it was small, cheap, and easy to integrate with the base game. Twelve tiles is a lot of tiles and can be quite powerful. The Catapult was a 12-tile expansion but considered a large expansion, so keep that in mind (despite the relative crappiness of the expansion).

While my first suggestion was to be the Families expansion, Novelty brings up a good point that that isn't actually a CarcCentral expansion. But I think something along those lines could be a good idea. If every tile could be a part of the expansion, that would be great as long as it's not too much (as in too unbalancing, too complicated). I'm not impressed with our WOWness yet, but perhaps if Matt or Gantry moved this topic up to a higher category, people may participate more. I feel like it is in the bottom part of the screen, which people don't see if they don't scroll down. Move us up! Please...

One last thing, CKorfmann, you're right that I don't think it matters where the seller is located, but they do have to be able to accept US Dollars in their PayPal account. However, I think Jay is planning this as a retail release, with CarcCentral just being one of the many suppliers (like any other online store). I don't think he plans or expects us to release it exclusively, rather he wants to get it out to stores as probably a mini-expansion like Cult, Siege & Creativity. While it would have been a magazine expansion ideally, the magazines have all gone under in the US so Jay will probably have to sell this commercially.

Remember the Medieval Expansion consists of four individual expansions. I would like to see Jousting Tournament as an official tile (there is only one tile to this expansion), but I understand and agree that the rules may be seen as quite complicated (although The Orders of Chivalry is not complicated at all, IMO).

I agree with Novelty, that doing Families is difficult. We would be better off setting the limit at 12 tiles, some with simple rules, others different configurations, etc. and no additional meeples.

Perhaps Authors could post here relinquishing their rights to their expansions in the event of them being published by either CC/HiG/RGG. At least that way we know who is in with their expansions and who isn't.

As I have already stated, any ideas of mine are free to be used by Carcassonne Central / HiG / RGG with no royalties payable to me whatsoever, (although a mention of the author would be nice ;) ), in the event of them getting 'officially' published.

I second what Joff said. Any ideas of mine are free to be used. Furthermore...let me bring up my Mills expansion. To simplify things, the Bakeries could be removed, making the expansion only 5 new tiles with no complicated rules. Yet, it does bring something different in the form of a new feature to be deployed to and a different layout of tiles required to complete it (3 tiles on each side). Just a thought...  :)

A very wise friend once told me, "If you don’t ask, they can't say 'Yes'."  That said...

Perhaps we are putting too many limits on ourselves.  Whaley has noted that most of the magazines are out of business, so there really isn't a distribution option with any them.  We will be limited to "normal" distribution methods like the FLGS.  So, what method of delivery are we left with?  I think it leaves us with two options.  First being a tuck box, 12 tiles or less with a small little rules sheet folded up and crammed down the edge.  Maybe somebody sees it on the shelf, or maybe it gets hidden next to all those big boxes next to it.  Or, second (dare I say) a regular, large expansion.  Maybe it's just 12 tiles like Catapult, maybe it's 18 like the Tower, but maybe even 30 like P&D!  What does HiG have to loose?  They get paid for our work… sounds like they would be getting a pretty good deal.  What's more... who would be better to promote and put forth such a work than a fan site solely devoted to their product; this one game.  We are their best friends.  We buy everything with a "C" on it (even when it sucks!) and promote it to everyone we know.  I think we need to look at this as us doing them a favor.  Let's say, "Hey, we'd love to do this for you!" rather than saying, "Could you do something for us?"  Granted, they might not see it that way, but they are men, and they could be convinced. 

See top of post.  In regard to royalties, let's not be too quick to walk through the door holding up a sign that says "We work for free!"  I certainly agree that I'd rather not see a dime than give up a chance to get something original published.  However, the art/entertainment/business world runs on royalties and I'm sure they know that.  I propose that we never even bring it up.  Let's let them bring it up.  They might surprise us and be perfectly willing to pay royalties. 

Maybe this guy could help with that.

The biggest 'Wow' I've heard lately is for JPutt's Seasons expansion.  I think it really is excellent and by the other comments I've read, it would appear as though many people agree.  It could easily be cleaned up (with the fan-made components having to be removed) and brought as an offering.  This would be very ambitious, but what do we have to loose?  At least, perhaps we could make two offerings.  One ambitious like this and one more reserved and let them choose.

A completely new expansion created by a coalition of authors could also be the answer.

My vote goes for the long awaited Monty Python and the Holy Grail in Carcassonne total conversion...

But seriously, what CKorfmann writes makes a great deal of sense. My only concern is with royalties: if we start to receive royalties, don't we stop being a non-commercial fan site? I think there are implications that need to be considered here.

Oh, and just kicking ideas around, it's been mentioned before that the CAR should appeal to HiG as something which could possibly be published. I'm not sure how I would feel about that, but were it to be the case it would provide a good opportunity for a small expansion to be bundled with it. That's completely far out, but just another possible 'means of distribution', if you see what I mean... 'Course, that would raise the whole royalty issue again.

I'd be behind publishing the CAR.  You've certainly done enough work to make it a worth while publication.  The only problem I see is that it is a living document.  With the next new expansion, it becomes obsolete (for lack of a nicer sounding word).

Exactly my problem with the idea. And there might be issues with subsequent corrections / additions too.

I was just brainstorming, really.

Hey, no foul!  Brainstorming is what we have to do, right.  :)  I'm not convinced it's a bad idea, it just presents some problems.  One good problem, for you, is that it would need to be updated periodically and it would give you something to keep doing for them.  Then we'd have to re-evaluate that superhero status!  ;D

Publishing a set of tiles with the CAR does solve another problem... we would not need to worry about how long the rules for the new tiles were, they could be included in the CAR. In this way several small expansions could be released.

Not to kill optimism here, but this discussion I feel is getting off track. While publishing the CAR would be absolutely awesome, I seriously doubt that RGG would consider it at this time. Concerning releasing several small expansions, I am just not feeling that will have the right WOW power. Instead, I think it will make the expansion seem confusing and disparate. That is not what we should be doing since we are trying to establish ourselves as a legitimate base for HiG and RGG to consult for future expansion ideas.

The major problem I see here is that everyone is voting for themselves. Anyone see Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End? We have become the Pirates' Council. We all have votes and we all are voting for ourselves...or at least promoting our ideas. Everyone here needs to consider other peoples' ideas too. It's fine to promote their own, but it is better to note the merits of others'.

I will post a poll in the next week, following Jay's reply to my email, with all of the major options for this expansion. But I am suggesting that each author only propose one (and only one) of their expansions for consideration. If the expansion is less than 12 tiles, we can include vanilla tiles to bring it up to 12. In addition, I am going to try and allow two votes for each person on CarcCentral, therefore everyone will have to vote for someone else's expansion as well as their own. Hopefully, we can reach a consensus this way, since discussing it between authors doesn't appear to be working. Post your well-thought proposals here, and I will compile them together in a poll later this week. When Jay replies, I will give a few days' time in case anyone wants to change their proposal. Then we will begin the weeding-out process. Sorry to be so harsh on everyone, but this should be a democratic decision and I feel like I am working with the estates general of the United Provinces of the Netherlands.

Would something along the lines of the section where we have new tiles, but no new rules, be a route we want to go down?  I know it's a lot of my stuff there, but I've really enjoyed the Thanksgiving and Winter 2008 expansions from Novelty, as well as my own.  I think the work on the mathguy gamma set is the best, but that's my opinion, though the CCCC tile from mathguy2008 is a really cool one. 

If you are truly serious about this, then yes, you should propose tiles without new rules. Much like GQ#11, or King and scout (yeah yeah, "longest road" can bite my arse).

I am going to be the "kill joy" and "fun sucker" of the conversation. I will give the short version on the why you will never get RGG or HiG to publish anything from this site based on the current conversation.

First rule of a corporation that produces a hard good:  If they receive any type of correspondence with an idea, suggestion and/or improvement, they will immediately stop reading.  At this point if they have a good PR section in the company they will send you a form letter stating that they didn't finish reading your correspondence and that they do not accept outside of the company unsolicited help.  If they don't respond at all it is because someone wasn't smart enough to setup a good PR response.

Now if the company is small and they do read the idea 100%, because they don't have a R&D department, they will clean room the idea and make sure they change just enough to avoid a possible lawsuit.  And they only attempt that when there is a large amount of money to be made.


Now I try to make sure anytime I am a total "kill joy" on an idea that I at lest give a suggestion around the issue.  Mine is very simple. 

You need to convince either RGG or HiG to run a contest for a fan submitted expansion.  This will allow their lawyers to draft rules in such a way that you will get credit for the submission, a copy or two of the final product but no other considerations, especially monetary and owner rights. That also means they will change artwork, wording, rules and final design as they see fit to meet their business model.  So don't expect your submission to be done exactly as you want.


So if you really want one of these tiles sets published and legal, get HiG to run a contest.  I am going to guess RGG based on my review of their current business model, isn't going to be as open to the idea.

You have some very valid points, but in light of some of the critisisms, I think we'll only know which direction to go when we start getting feedback from Jay.

Not everyone is voting for themselves.  I've suggested at least a dozen works of other people.  I'm not sure you can rush to make that judgement based on Joff's last post.  He doesn't outright suggest his work, and I'm not sure we should assume he is doing so.  His work is some of, if not the the best we have to offer anyway, IMO.  I do agree that the authors should vote though, and that's why I suggested that Gantry and Matthew, as admins, choose the voting list.

That would be playing it safe, but I still say, be careful we don't limit ourselves.  I don't think it would hurt to offer two different proposals even if they are only for Jay to choose which one he's willing to submit.

I would be tempted to agree with you on almost every point if it were not for the GQ11.  That might sound contradictory considering my previous statement, but the precedent has been set.

Okay, first thing this morning I received my reply from Jay. He pretty much is his own PR department and has already stated that we can propose to him directly and he will negotiate for us. He doesn't intend to stop reading and creating something different. We've already been through this with Jay and basically he will publish what we give him if he and HiG approve of it. That being said, here is the gist of what he replied to me:


Okay, so there you have it. The summary:
1) Jay would consider a small (12-tile) or large (24- or 30-tile) expansion, but it has to be approved by Hans im Glück
2) New mechanics are fine, but limit them to 2 or 3 new mechanics, nothing more, but keep them in the same rough theme.
3) Mechanics relating to warfare probably would be rejected by HiG.

With these conditions, Jay leaves us pretty open to user contributions. I still think that authors and other people should propose what they feel are the best expansions and then I will make a poll with two votes each to try and determine the winner(s) that we can then use to create this expansion. Jay sounds open to the idea so let's impress him with something great. No catapult mechanics need apply!

I am amazed that RGG is even willing to consider this.  I wonder how he plans to deal with the legal ownership issues?  Esp since the information was distributed on the internet with little to no legal copyrights being applied for or granted.  Which means there is now a "Public Domain" situation.  I can't wait to see how this turns out.

Jay's reply is exciting!  It's good to know that I wasn't out in left field with my thinking.  I have to say that given the information we've received from Jay, I feel JPutt's Seasons should be strongly considered.  The expansion has received nothing but praise from members, it fits Jays description, it's a brand new mechanic, and the concept of seasons is familar to gamers with versions available for Catan and Agricola.  Not that there aren't equally appropriate options, I just feel it's one of our best.  Any thoughts?

As for Joff's Medieval expansion, it seems like it might be just slightly more complex in the number of rule sets than Jay has suggested (2-3 new concepts, where Medieval has four).  But, it could be a possible future proposal.

Whaley, hopefully this isn't putting the cart before the horse, but in light of the many fine expansions/authors we have here, would Jay be willing to consider a subsequent offering if the first one goes well?  Could you, perhaps, put that on your next list of questions.

Lol. I already have a number of legal, semi-legal questions that we have all raised concerning so I will add it to the list. I will probably have to read and read-read this forum dozens of times before we finish everything and (hopefully) get our expansion published.

That all being said, I counter-propose that while each author can only propose one of their expansions for consideration, other authors can propose their expansions. That way, we get more democracy still!

List of proposed expansions for the poll:
1. Carcassonne - Seasons

I think it's worth noting that since Jay seems open to the posibility of a "large" set of 24-30 tiles, then it would seem likely that it could include meeples.  If we follow the form of A&M, the three new meeples they introduced had nothing to do with the tiles that came in the set.  That said, we also have several excellent meeple-only expansions worthy of consideration.  Some of those are mine, but that doesn't mean I'm particularly suggesting those.  ;)

Even though I have my doubts of this getting off the ground, I did spend some time re-reviewing the expansions currently listed here.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the Mountains be presented as the first full non-HiG expansion for production.  The concept and playability are straight forward.  The scoring does help drive the players to keeping the mountains near each other.  But the rules should be clarified and/or changed to allow the player to use a mountain to complete an existing feature like the abbey tile does. This adds a tactical element to the game which can also help newer players, that are not fully versed in the tile distribution, to get out of certain traps.  The tile distribution should be group reviewed one last time to make sure it is consistent with other large expansions already in release.  This set might also help convince RGG/HiG a much larger release such as the Forests could be worthwhile.

At present there are very few expansions listed here I would actually pay for.  The criteria for my selection was "What would I be willing to buy two copies of for both home and work"?  Only the Mountains and Forests really stuck out.  And I would be willing to pay between $25 and $35 for each set.

I like and have considered the mountains and I might agree with you, only the base set has 60 tiles.  That would be the largest expansion to date (disregarding the Wheel of Fate).  I'm not sure if they'd go for a 60 tile set but I also don't think we could do mountains with less.  However, I could be persuaded to vote for it if others are on board. 

May I suggest that we split this thread in two?  Expansion ideas and logistical ideas.

You would have to talk Steve into it; he understands english. ;)

I am against adding new meeples to the set, for the sheer reasons that it will be harder to propose such an expansion to Jay and HiG and that I don't think they are currently looking for more followers. We have plenty of expansions here that don't require new meeples, so let's choose from those. If you disagree, feel free to propose one and I will place it on the list.

Personally, I agree that for a larger expansion, something using the Mountains could be good and new. I am not sure if the original rules by Novelty would be good, though, since they require remembering an awful lot of nuances, but perhaps something could be made from them. Using the cloister tiles from the High Places expansion is my personal recommendation, although I also like the idea that mountains could block off a side of the tile. That being said, I am adding my own proposed expansion to the list below, and a generic two categories for future inclusion on the poll.

List of proposed expansions for the poll:
1. Seasons
2. Mountains (with some modifications)
3. Fishermen (with some aspects from at least one expansion)
4. Let's make a new expansion!
5. I don't think we should make an expansion to publish

I believe it can be done using the original 36 tile set that Novelty did.  Which fits within the 12 tile per sheet or 6 tile per sheet die system that RGG already has in place.

Well, I think I would support a Mountain set.  Having not ever played it, I'm not sure if 36 would be enough.  Perhaps Novelty needs to comment on that.  The one question I would have is whether or not a Mountain expansion is on HiG's master list of future possibilities.  It seems possible if not likely.  If so, then I doubt they'd want someone else to do it first.  Then again, if they did, would they have put out Catapult?  :)  Any way, it does use mostly their own artwork so the tiles already look right.

As for Fishermen, not that it's not a worthy expansion, but I'm not sure that it's different enough to warrent a serious consideration from them.  I could be quite wrong though. 

Perhaps the meeple question should be another one for Jay before we throw it out.  Are you keeping a list Whaley?

I think 36 well-chosen Mountain tiles would be good. I don't think it would require more, especially if we add to the function of the mountain a sort of Abbey-like quality. Too many could make it too powerful. I agree that Mountains could be on HiG's short list, but with Catapult and Wheel I don't think they remember that they have a short list. Use of their artwork probably helps our case too because it would mean less design for them.

Fisherman was more of an idea for me because I think that the River mechanics are very general and simple-minded. Spreading out to the Fisherman concept, the River suddenly is worth points, adds to the aesthetics of the board in a more random way, and provides a full feature rather than the limited feature it currently is. But I hesitated adding it to the list originally for the very reason you suggest, that it isn't very WOW-ful. But I think it merits inclusion since obviously HiG has considered the topic enough to include it. It would have to be a 24-36 tile expansion, of course, and could possibly include new followers too, pending Jay's response.


Can we include new meeples? Check!

Here's the list of questions I have so far:
1) How does the author or authors of any expansion transfer rights of ownership to Rio Grande Games and/or Hans im Glück?
2) Will there be any legal complications over the fact that the expansion has been created and distributed via our website in the years/months prior to release of the expansion in a commercial format?
3) Can a new expansion include new wooden pieces?
4) Would Rio Grande Games consider a second expansion from Carcassonne Central if the first such expansion is a success?

Any other pressing issues I should ask? I don't like sending Jay too many emails. He gets frustrated, I think. I was thinking that if, and this is a big IF, we get something worked out before October, we could maybe get him to playtest it at Essen. That would definitely make things a lot better for everyone involved...assuming Jay is going to Essen this year, which he should be.

An abbey mechanic with the Mountain tiles doesn't seem to sit very well with me for some reason.  Not sure why.

As for Fishermen:
It took a little digging, but I remembered and found this quote from Novelty.  It seems as though he wasn't satisfied with 60+ river tiles in his game.  Granted, he used a truckload of tiles in that one though.  Maybe he could shed some more light on this one for us.  Plus, Fishermen just adds a new mechanic to old tiles, even if it is a very good one.  I'm not sure they'd be interested in us handing them a bunch of dragon tiles only with a new mechanic or another Mayor that does something different.  Just a thought...

Oh, and here's another question, would he be able to further define distribution by RGG?  Does that mean it would go out in a box from him just like everything else?  Or, is this obvious and I'm just a dumby?

I would add to the list either my Jousting Tournament or a two tile version of In the Stocks. I feel that In the Stocks provides a better base mechanic than Jousting Tournament. Jousting Tournament is really geared up to be played with Abbey and Mayor, whereas In the Stocks can be played with any combination of sets. Just to be clear, I am not proposing the whole Medieval Expansion, which consists of 4 individual expansions, as that is too unbalanced.

I do like Lord of the Manor by Scott, but would like to see the 'bail out' rule added to this (that is a personal opinion and could be a house rule (or official optional rule ;) ), which it is at the moment).

Also, Ghettos by Novelty.

If we are going to have some sort of vote then it would be a good idea if we have a representation from all the authors in the list.

Looking at Mountains, I feel that this is a bit too large!

Okay, I'm adding In the Stocks and Lord of the Manor to the list. I feel Ghettos probably isn't what Novelty would prefer and I don't really think we need a second whole-filler expansion as we already have one with A&M. That being said, I can include it on the list if people feel it should be on there. I added Lord of the Manor because others earlier also expressed the desire to add it to the list and I, too, like the little expansion. In fact, it was the first expansion I ever printed and pasted on my CS&C tiles!

List of proposed expansions for the poll:
1. Seasons
2. Mountains (with some modifications)
3. In the Stocks (2-tile edition)
4. Lord of the Manor (with possible bail-out rule)
5. mathguy Gamma (with some tiles possibly switched with Winter and Thanksgiving 2008 or a different mathguy expansion's tiles)
6. Let's make a new expansion!
7. I don't think we should make an expansion to publish

Also, I added CKorfmann's new question to the list:

Current list of questions:
1) How does the author or authors of any expansion transfer rights of ownership to Rio Grande Games and/or Hans im Glück?
2) Will there be any legal complications over the fact that the expansion has been created and distributed via our website in the years/months prior to release of the expansion in a commercial format?
3) Can a new expansion include new wooden pieces?
4) Would Rio Grande Games consider a second expansion from Carcassonne Central if the first such expansion is a success?
5) How exactly would distribution of the expansion work? Would it be distributed in a box (small for a mini-expansion or big for a large expansion) or would it distributed more like the Games Quarterly expansion (unpunched in a bag)?

Edit: Removed Fisherman from the list as per concerns. Added mathguy Gamma. Sorry, forgot to include it earlier!

As worthy as these tiles are and as much as I'm rooting for you, I'd hate to see the Medieval expansion split up.  I'm not sure that's the answer.  If the first expansion goes well and they are interested in a second, I think the Medieval expansion stands a much greater chance being offered on the whole.  However, we shouldn't "count our chickens" on a second chance, so if you're willing to split it, that's is obviously up to you. 

Not-for-profit entities have expenses too.

So is the Carcassonne Central name legally protected and do we have official not-for-profit status?  I would think this necessary.

The only reason they are grouped in this way is because of theme. A whole Medieval Expansion is just far too unbalanced... there are too many 'cccc' tiles included.

The paperwork to setup a non-profit organization isn't cheap.  It requires legal council and several fillings with the proper goverment agencies.  I am not familiar with Canada laws for this, but I suspect it follows similar rules as the United States.  A hobby site of this nature would require everyone to chip in to defray the cost.  

I have rights to the name "Carcassonne Central" through prior use, but it is not legally trademarked.  CC is not a legal entity, only a web site run as if it were a non-profit.  Although we will in the future, you'll notice there aren't many ads on this site (right now just the banner on the home page). Any money that the site or community members make as a collective will be put back into improving or running the site. Carcassonne for me is fun, not work.

Well, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'd call it unbalanced.  People do have the option of choosing which ones they want to play with and aren't required to use them all.  You mentioned before that the Stocks could be reduced to two tiles.  I think I agree that two would be enough.  I still think some good substitutions might be one each of Scott's LotM tiles and probably the Archery Tournament for one of the Gallows.  But, that would be six new rule sets and going in the wrong direction.  

I hope it stays that way for you.  If it's costing you any $ personally, I wouldn't be offended if you asked for dues from authors or something like that.

As it should be. I think that as long as Jay has other means of distribution, which he surely will since we are only some few dozen fans, he will utilize them. If it would cost more money or take more time than necessary to distribute our own expansion, I think it would be better to work out an agreement with a web store than sell it ourselves. We can get some free promotional versions to distribute, but let's try to avoid making this a taxable website/store because that just makes things work.

Rather than making the Mods do all the work, I started a new thread for artistic portion of this discussion.  It's in the Collective (moved to General).

As much as I like some of the expansions that are being nominated, I think a collection of mini-expansions is not the way to go. It either needs to be two 6-tile expansions on a 12-tile sheet, or one highly unified expansion consisting of 12, 24, or 36 tiles. I think Seasons would be putting our best foot forward.

I just read al of this, and I feel very excited by the prospect...

Not to push myself forward, but wells is very simple and true to the original game....

And I agree, the medieval expansion has too many CCCC tiles. I haven't had time to look over seasons yet so I can't comment on it...

Suddenly, this poll: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=726.0 bcomes very relevant...

Well, since there has been no conversation in the past few days, perhaps it's the appropriate time to send Jay the next round of questions.  What do you think Whaley?

I'm going to hold off for a few more days then email him. Probably early next week or late this weekend. That way Jay gets a little time to respond.

I'm just curious if the end of August time line is something that Jay asked for, or if it's something we settled on.  Forgive me if this is answered somewhere in the depths of this post.  I didn't have time to look for it.  I don't have a problem with August, but I was wondering if Jay mentioned when he would be making his next trip to Germany.  I think we should be sure to reconcile our schedule with his so whichever expansion we choose doesn't sit on his self for a few months until he goes over there. 

I was also kind of thinking that at the rate people are voting, another week or two should be plenty of time to call it.  There have been 19 voters and I doubt there are more than 20 or so regular posters on this site.  Just thinking out loud... 

So, maybe I'm a little over anxious, but did you get to send of those questions to Jay yet?

Wow, you are anxious. No, I haven't send them to Jay yet. I probably should, though. I think I said I'd send them so he'd have them today. Sorry, it was a very busy weekend. I'll try to send them later today.

Well, it's not like you have anything important to do like a thesis or anything!  ;D

I sent him the questions. No more belly-aching... hmmm, wonder if Meeples can have belly aches?

You're a gentleman and a scholar... I think mayors have belly aches.  ;)

Yay, more answers to questions! Jay is really on the ball this time around. I wonder if he is getting excited. Maybe he feels let down by the past three expansions too. The answer to question 3 is the only one that surprises me, although question four is also a rather strange response. It's like he questions our creativity! Who knows, either way, here are his replies to our questions:

1) How does the author or authors of any expansion legally transfer the expansion idea to Rio Grande Games and/or Hans im Glück?

2) Will there be any legal complications over the fact that the expansion has been created and distributed via our website in the years/months prior to release?

3) Can a new expansion include new wooden pieces?

4) Can a new expansion include or be mostly composed of cards?

5) How exactly would distribution of the expansion work? Would it be distributed in a box (small for a mini-expansion or big for a large expansion) or would it distributed more like the Games Quarterly expansion (unpunched in a bag)?

6) Is there a convenient deadline we should set for submission of the expansion? Such as sometime before Spielfest?

7) Would Rio Grande Games consider a second expansion from Carcassonne Central if the first such expansion is a success?

Looks like we should concentrate on expansions with a fair amount of tiles and wooden pieces...

I'm not sure about "fair amount" but it sounds like Jay is expecting us to use at least one new special meeple per person, maybe two. It doesn't sounds like he wants just a 12-tile no new rules expansion as we had first predicted. Perhaps we can try to combine multiple expansion components. Something like Seasons + something that adds a new meeple but no new tiles. We haven't looked into any of those really yet. It also seems like Jay doesn't anticipate any card expansion would work, so I think JPutt's idea may have some merit and provide an element of surprise to Jay who I bet would like the idea.

This is great news!  I agree, it sounds like Jay is really interested in doing this.  Maybe we should just send him the link to the By Order of the King expansion and see if it's the kind of thing he's interested in.  I guess it's also time to start a new poll to vote for some of our original Meeples.

So lets get specific. 12-30 tiles, 1 or 2 NPCs, 1 or 2 new player pieces?

I think he said earlier 12-24 was preferred, although sheets can be printed with up to 15 tiles, which means 30 shouldn't be out of the question. I's still say 12-24, though. He didn't mention specifics for new pieces, but I'd say 1 new NPC would probably be best (we already have quite a few in mega games) and 1 or 2 player pieces. Really, though, it sounds like he is open to any suggestions. I only caution that it should be a reasonable expansion, not something that has too much stuff. Probably Abbey & Mayor or Princess & Dragon are the best comparisons for the size of the expansion. Those both introduced lots of new stuff but did it pretty fluidly and linked the ideas (P&D moreso than A&M).

I posted a comment very similar to this in the poll thread.  It's funny because I didn't read this one yet. 

I have a question-
If we give up the rights to whatever expansions we give RGG to publish, will we have to remove them from this site? And if so, would we simply have to stop letting them be available for download, or would we have to take out everything relating to them?  ???

We probably would have to remove them for legal reasons, but I don't think we would have to remove mention of them. I mean, it was the site members that created the expansion so it wouldn't really make sense that we'd have to remove references to it.

Just a little email I received from Jay with an update that I thought I should post:

Does that mean he likes the ideas? Who knows, but he is presenting them at least so that is a good sign. Seasons and By Order of the King are now the leaders on that poll, so I anticipated it well. Nobleman is now leader on the meeple board, but Trading Posts and Missionary are still 2nd and 3rd (although Missionary is tied for 3rd with Pope of Avignon). Hopefully HiG likes what they see!

SWEET!  ;D

I was thinking more about this and I doubt we'd have to remove them.  There are tile scans of every tile in the offical game at BGG and nobody makes a stink about those.  Besides, they are likely to redo the art anyway.

I just emailed Jay for an update: looks like our expansion idea is going to ESSEN!!! He wouldn't give any reaction to the expansion ideas, but he said that no update would be available until the end of the month (apparently for Wheel of Fate as well). So lets all hold our breaths for three weeks until Essen is over. :-D

I guess no news is good news at this point...

I hope that is good news!  It would be great if it was positive there.  Is anyone from here heading over to Essen this year???

Well, the Essen show is over now.  I hope we hear something soon!

I'm waiting until next week to email him. I don't want to pester him the moment he returns home and there is no saying if he is staying longer to work out details for his various games. He made it sound like it was more a business trip than anything.

It's probably a long business trip for him and Carcassonne isn't his only game.  Hopefully we'll have some good news!

You'll all be excited to know that I emailed Jay today. He's been much better at replying to me lately so I'd expect a response by Wednesday at the latest. I asked about the CarcCentral expansion (of course) but I also asked about the US release of Der Tunnel and requested him to put a watermark on the tunnel tiles. I feel it would be really great if all the mini expansions would get watermarks, but really only The River and Cult, Siege and Creativity still need them (well, and the mini expansion) since the rest were included in Count, King & Cult.

Alright, so the news from Essen is in and it appears mixed. Here's Jay's reply to my question concerning our expansion:


It's with Hans im Glück now and outside Jay's influence or knowledge. This Bernd guy seems like the next person to contact if we want to know what's going on with the expansion. The good news, at least I hope, is that Carcassonne does not appear dead at all. This Bernd guy is making ideas for expansions, "many" ideas, so that suggests there is a long life left for our favorite game.

I'll put the other response on the Tunnel board here (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=1101).

Well, I wonder if we can start communicating with him?  Perhaps we can suggest to him that he visit our site for ideas as well.  I think we already had the discussion about releasing our work, right?

Actually, I already emailed him and am awaiting a reply. Hopefully he sends something. I don't have his specific email so I had to use the site's forum. But I don't think there are tons of employees there.

It has been a strange set of days with Jay and HiG. First, Jay told me that it was all in HiG's hands now, then he told me that he lost my original proposal and can I send another, and today I get the strangest news of all...mostly because it is in badly translated (or written?) English from Hans im Glück itself. Here's the message (pass on through Jay):


I am not entirely sure what the first part of this message is referring to. It definitely sounds like HiG is making Expansion 8 (after Catapult) and is planning to release it soon. Not sure what the Nuremberg part refers to, though. The second section is more confusing though, it implies that HiG plans to release that new expansion before 2010. I think this is where he starts talking about our expansion. It sounds like it is one set of many ideas but that he is going to decide which are to be playtested for Expansion 9(?), set to release in 2010, sometime in the next few weeks. Jay then ends telling me personally that HiG will contact me directly when they are ready to do something with our expansions (if ever).

So the good news I can derive is that Expansion 8 appears nearly done, albeit unannounced, and that is may release before the end of the year, which makes sense if you don't consider Wheel of Fortune an official expansion (which HiG does not advertise it as). Tunnel, then, is the only official expansion this year and that is hardly a major development. The less-than-certain news is that Bernd is considering ideas for Expansion 9 in the next few weeks and plans to release that in 2010, and if any of our ideas are accepted, it will be a part of this expansion.

Debate, discuss, get confused! At least something is being said about the CarcassonneCentral expansion and that is better than nothing!

Wow, this sounds pretty interesting, but I'm not sure what to think.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Not sure about the dates Bernd mentioned, but the Nuremberg Game Fair next year is 4-9 February and it sounds like we can expect some new full-sized expansion then, if not sooner. I doubt HiG will release anything sooner than that.

Not that you would keep it to yourself, Governor, but have you heard anything new yet?

No news. Bernd never got back to me and Jay says it is in HiG's hands now. They have a bunch of ideas they're throwing around for Expansion 8 and ours are just in that mix. I think Seasons is probably out due to its similarity to the Wheel mechanic in Wheel of Fortune. When I was playing last week, I was thinking: "Crap, this is pretty close to Wheel of Fortune". The card expansion and the missionary, though, I think still have a shot. By Order of the King was quite inventive, I think. We may not hear from them, though, until something of ours gets approved. Otherwise, just wait for the Nürnberg Game Fair. That's where they're announcing Expansion 8 according to Jay's email.

No news is still good news... I guess, right?  At least it's not bad news.

Thought I'd kick the tires on this one again.  I don't suppose there's any more news since Expansion 8 is sitting on my game table right now. 

I wonder if our best bet wouldn't be to self publish something like Games Quarterly did.  Granted, this will cost $$$, or maybe just $ (hopefully not $$$$$...), but lets cross that bridge when we come to it.  Any thoughts?

Just a *few* issues:

1. Will we even be allowed to do it by HiG, RGG?
2. Who would organise it?
3. Who would pay for it?
4. Where would the profits go? (The person who funded it, the expansion's creator, the site, RGG etc.)
5. How many expansions?
6. Which expansions?
7. How much would it cost to purchase?
8. How would it be printed? (Through RGG ect.)
9. How would it be distributed? (Magazine, online order etc.)
10. For how long would it be available?
11. Other legal issues...

Yeah, I know there are a lot of issues, but I'm thinking about the GQ11.  It's too bad that magazine folded up because it would be nice to talk to them and see how they did it.  I remember Jay talking about it, but I don't remember what he said.  I think it's worth persuing to see if it's possible before we worry about coming up with the money.  I guess I'm being optimistic. 

Either way, its your turn to try out such negotiations. I'm rather tired of talking to Jay. Our previous attempt just got passed off to HiG and I've never heard back from them again.

If you wanted to give me the contact info for the HiG guy you spoke with, I wouldn't mind emailing him.

For full disclosure... I wanted to let you guys know that I emailed some people at Speilbox today about the prospect of a Carcassonne Central expansion.  Since it's been on the table for the better part of two years now, I thought I'd kick the tires on it one more time and see what happens.  Here is the email I sent.



MOD: Topic merged at this point from authors forum.

Hopefully this will be more succesful than the attempts with Jay...

It's worth a shot. Let's see what the response is.

Even if we did not get to have an expansion published in this way, having an article about the site (and maybe the Authors) would be really good to see.

I hope there will be no more expansions to Carcassonne. Ever.

Good luck to this though; I know I am the minority :)

It's been several days and I haven't heard anything from Spielbox yet.  Not sure if I will...

I figured it can't hurt to have more oars in the water, so I sent something to Jay too.

He actually responded rather quickly. 

I can't decide how promising this is.  At least Jay seems willing to help us. 

Or, it could be a fob off :(

Got an answer from Jay.  I think it's rather exciting.  I have some ideas, but before I answer him, I need to address it with you all. 


His statement about they is in regards to Bernd/HiG.  I think this is a perfect opportunity to do something GQ11ish.

My idea is this, since Creativity is his thing, I thought we/he might be able to sell sets of two stickers to put on the extra tiles.  It might be possible to include meeples, I could ask him about that, but before he gets flooded with ideas, I think we need to narrow it down a bit.  I don't think we'll get anywhere if we say, "here's the link to our site, check them out."  So, do we just send him the same stuff we discussed before?  Should this discussion move to the open threads?  What are yor thoughts?

I'm not convinced about stickers, because they'd never fit perfectly. Also, 'official' alternative tiles would be a pain to account for in the CAR. But since I was barely involved in the original discussion, my opinion doesn't count for much here.

What I've wanted from an expansion for a long time is an 'expansion expansion' including elements from previous expansions - a new pig-herd tile, a new tower foundation, a new tunnel entrance, that sort of thing. That, and an official solution to the trade tokens scoring issue.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to by trade token scoring issue, but as for something being official, if Jay were to publish it, it should be no less official than the GQ11 I would think.  I see what you mean about random sticker expansions be difficult for the CAR though.

Perhaps I should write back to Jay to ask for some parameters to consider.

Sorry, an old annoyance of mine. I'm referring to the fact that a majority of trade tokens at the end of the game score a whopping total of 10 points. Fine if you're playing with the basic game + Traders and Builders. By the time you get to a game of Mega-Carc, 10 points is a joke.

Just think: how many points did you pick up from cloisters in the last game? How many points from the King? These basically scale as more expansions are added. Trade goods don't: they're fixed at 10, and become less and less important (=tactical) as we go on. What I'd love is a official rule / variation which fixes this, makes trade goods scale, and makes them useful again.

I think it might be difficult to scale commodity scoring.  You could add an expansion expansion, as you've recommended, and include more trade good tiles, but that wouldn't address scoring.  You could also increase scoring for extra chits beyond the majority, but that would effect a small game too (I recently got all but two chits in a game on AsoBrain).  Perhaps some combination of the two would be in order.  

I think I am going to as Jay what his parameters would be.

Not wishing to hijack the thread with my peeves, but it occurred to me this morning that you could multiply the number of points awarded for a majority of trade goods by the number of major expansions used or something like that. If you used three major expansions you'd get 30 points; if you used all eight, 80. That would certainly make trade goods worth fighting for in a game of Mega-Carc.

Asking Jay what the parameters would be is good. Just say for the moment we wanted an 'expansion expansion' (and as I said, my opinion doesn't count for much this late in the discussion—and I'm fine with that). For it to have any sense of legitimacy, there would have to be at least one representation of and expansion for us to 'adapt' it. One princess tile in order to modify the rules for princesses (for example, that seduced followers now behave like captured followers and are not returned to the player until the city is completed). To do something similar with trade goods, you'd need at least one of each type of good, and the same number of each token. If we can't have odd-shaped tokens, it becomes much harder. If we can though, we could also think about including a tile with a tunnel; or tokens to put on bridges to turn them into aqueducts, that sort of thing.

I think its very exciting to hear that Jay is willing to consider something.  Previously the proposed submission to HiG was enough to be a large expansion.  I think if Jay is going to do something of his own he’ll probably stick to a small expansion like GQ11 or Cult, Siege, and Creativity (possibly with the addition of a new meeple, so a Count sized box).  The original submission was all fan made expansions from the site…that seemed to be the consensus of what the members of the site wanted to see.  Discussion on this thread has leaned toward an expansion of expansion crossover tiles.  

For the first, an expansion of fan made expansions, I think this best represents the creative expression and input into the game from CC authors.  I think it makes a strong statement about what CC is and adds to the community.  With this option I think Jay will consider the quality of the rules and its impact on the game in adding new mechanics.  Is it worth it to the game.

For the second idea, expansion crossovers, I think this is less impactful as a statement about CC but perhaps more intriguing to serious fans of the games.  At least those who collect all the expansions and play Mega-Carc.  With this option I think Jay will consider his sales.  If a high percentage of those who buy the game go on to collect them all then it’s a good consideration, but producing a tile set that requires other expansion sets might not be as successful as it’s the last thing anyone will buy, once they have all the other sets.  So I think he’ll base that decision on his sales figures.  Is it worth it to distribute.

That said I think Jay will lean more towards the brand new mechanics then he would a tile set that restricts itself to the purchase of other sets.  That is just business sense.  So I lean towards the 12 tile set showcasing fan mades.  Though if a few of the tiles were to be crossover or if a few of the fan made tiles incorporated crossover symbols on them I think that could be a nice perk.  Though I’d keep the crossovers to what is in the Big Box expansions and not use symbols from the small box, spielbox, or special edition (ie crop circles and the party) inclusions.  Well…with the exception of another possible pig herd.

Check out this (http://carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.msg15332#msg15332) thread

Great minds and all that  ;)

Let the deliberations begin!

I think loganmann1 put his case very well. An expansion expansion is likely to be less successful. Nevertheless, as far as I can see, there are three basic options:

• An expansion expansion
• A best of CarcassonneCentral expansion
• A single mind-blowing expansion

If Jay wants a short list, I propose we send him one of each. I also propose that we set up three new threads to discuss each, and all subsequent posts be moved to those threads until a decision is made.

Also, I have no idea how the legal stuff would work, but even if the authors do not keep the copyright, I think it would be fair to expect that any rules questions be directed to our forums, so that the authors are able to clarify issues themselves.

All my proposals can, of course, be ignored completely  :)

That's reasonable, but maybe I'll send him those three options and see if he favors one.

I assume Jay is used to handling the legal stuff, but I agree that people should be pointed back here for FAQs and more.

Some of my personal opinions:


I think this would be a good way to go, my opinions on suitable expansions:
If several small expansions, then: mills and bakeries, fortune teller, barbarian horde, by orders of the king (I think this would be possibly the most unique and outstanding expansion), maybe some tiles from the fields series? Others such as shepherds and trading posts might also be good, althought they didn't originate on CC.
A large expansion: treasure hunt, I can easily see this as our expansion, or maybe mountains (in a slimmed-down form?)


I agree, I think we can be a bit more original than this...

Another response from Jay.  My email to him:

His response:
Not much for conversation, this one.  :)

Let me make it clear that this choice eliminates many great, and by some opinions, the best expansions.  Then again, any choice would do the same.  I believe any success will give our authors credibility and who knows, maybe allow for future opportunities.  I'll send him several small things and let him shop.  I'm thinking The Medieval Expansion, Archery Tournament, LotM, King's Gate, Roman Road & Temple, Colleseum & Ranch (Solazy), Fortune Teller (6), Ghettos, and Market Commons.  Again, there are some great small expansions that are only a couple tiles, but use several chits.  Being that the likelyhood of this being packaged in a tuckbox seems pretty high, I doubt there'll be a lot of room for extra chits. 

Like The Count of Carcassonne though, there may be a little extra room and he did not turn down the idea of a meeple expansion so I'll send him The Leper, The Horse (or a modified version without dice), and The Missionary.  Trading posts was a favorite from the polls, but I don't think 6 will fit in a tuckbox.  Something like Shepherds would just be way too many.  It would require it's own box.  Some of the custom meeples like Grim Reaple might be too hard to pull off. 

If you think there is anything obvious I'm missing, let me know.  This is exciting!  ;D

Personally, I like the idea behind mills and bakeries, but it's up to you (obviously everyone has differing opinions). If we're going with the tuxbox idea, I'm guessing by order of the king is out.

EDIT: And yes, it is exciting

Maybe if this one turns out to be a success, there might be room for a future Order of the king expansion. At least I hope so  :)

Actually, I meant to include By Order of the King just to get his feedback.  I will likely do so.  I think for what he sounds interested in, Mills and Bakeries is too large.  There are a dozen excellent prospects that simply are outside the criteria for this one.  Although, I suppose we shouldn't count our chickens before they hatch.  ;)

Of coarse you have to send in By order of the king, but as mentioned before, it is likely to be sorted out when looking at Jays choice. But you never know  :)

I think this has a lot of variety. I think this is a good selection of small expansions.  I wish we could send mills and bakeries but it would be too big to be a compilation.  I say send trading posts anyway just to see what he thinks.  Are you sending the whole solazy set or specifically colleseum and ranch?  Isn't there a ranch equivalent for roads and cities as well?  If so I'd hope all of those are presented.  I like that idea.

Here's to Jay having an open mind!

I did send him the whole Solazy rules document that has everything on it and I agree, it would probably be good to include the barracks and outposts.  I think I was swayed by my fondness for that particular tile and it's art. He'll have the whole thing to look at though so perhaps something will catch his eye.

I also emailed him today with a brief description of By Order of the King and attached the rules document.  He's been getting back to me pretty quick lately.  His reply:


Kind of a bummer.  He did receive my email with all the other suggestions I made from before and has been looking over those as well.

Its nice for hime to be paying some attention to this and getting back so quickly.  Wish he'd get back on just when tunnels, crop circles and the plague will get released :)

I figured I might throw in my two cents. Ultimately, I feel as though "By Order of the King" is my greatest work, but it's possible this opportunity may not be right for it just yet. With that said, I feel as if given my contributions, I'd like a chance to choose an expansion of mine that falls within Jay's criteria. Of all of my expansions I have made, I have played with most all of them many, many times. However, I feel that there is one that I am consistently drawn back to wanting to play over and over again. I feel the mechanic it offers is not only the simplest, but the strongest as well. It is that of the "Fortune Teller". It includes 6 tiles, falling well within Jay's parameters. It is something I would love to see Jay's input on. Obviously, I don't think we should keep bombarding Jay with ideas, however, this is an idea I feel very strong about. Do as you feel necessary, but I just figured I would let my opinion be known!   :)

Great minds think alike.  Fortune Tellers was one that I sent.  ;)

I my last communication with Jay he said that it would likely be a few weeks before he got back to us.  I sent him a considerable amount.


Thought I should update, as of 3/16, haven't heard anything.

Update:
Having heard nothing from Jay for a long time, I sent this message the other day.


I got this reply today:


This sounds like good news to me.

That sounds like very good news. At least, I'm excited (but I won't hold my breath ;))

This is excellent news! Im excited to see which one he will print. :)

That is excellent news! It sounds like we're on the agenda anyway so there is hope.

Lastest response from Jay:


Did not answer my question about the availablility of the Schule.