Troubadours

[Trebuchet]

an attempt

[CKorfmann]

an attempt

I like it.  Good job!

I had a voice teacher who used to tell me, "That's really good, but if you want it to be great we have to get picky."  So, to get a little picky, I think it might look even better if you were able to mute it a little bit to more closely match the lines on the rest of the tile.

[Trebuchet]

I think it might look even better if you were able to mute it a little bit to more closely match the lines on the rest of the tile.

i see what you mean, had another go at it, it's the best i can do though.. 

[CKorfmann]

Super.  I think it looks great!  The difference is better.

[Ailurus]

Very nice indeed! I say, let's find a couple of interesting tiles and add this icon

[Trebuchet]

ok !

i've been re-reading this thread and i add just some loose thoughts based on my own busking experiences  
maybe smt can be used in terms of rules or what not. But maybe this is beyond what was intended with the troubadour expansion. Nevertheless i'll post it as ideas.

- roads should be included i think. as a musician tends to travel constantly a troubadour should before entering a new city be on a road first somehow.
- when busking you need a permit, maybe before entering a city something ought to be worked out there.
- the aim is to get money to travel on. In carc language that should be points. After so much points earned the troubadour moves on. Maybe use your note tokens to be placed on vacant city tiles (of the city where the troubadour is active) each tile representing an area/distict where the troubadour has performed. Each token 1 point, 1 token to be laid down per turn for as long as a) there are vacant city tiles to place a note token, b) no new lute tile is drawn, the troubadour must then leave the city. Give lets say 10ea note tokens per player, the player that finishes a city gets the tokens (also when not occupied by that player). furthermore: when 2 troubadours are occupying a city, they compete obviously for the uncovered citydistricts, when there are no more tiles vacant to place a note token, no points in that city can be scored.

Some questions:
- would a big follower count as 2 troubadours when occupying a city?
- can there be more troubadours in one city?
- why leave a city after 3 turns? You might want to consider the troubadour must travel on when drawing a new lute tile only.

how scoring would be with all this i wouldn't know, as said these are just loose thoughts to have the expansion back on track maybe..

[Ailurus]

Thanks for your input!

- roads should be included i think. as a musician tends to travel constantly a troubadour should before entering a new city be on a road first somehow.

I agree, but there might be no road that leads from the city in which the Troubadour resides. Seems a little random to move the Troubadour to a road in this case (only logical road would be one which leads to a new city containing a Troubadour icon).

- when busking you need a permit, maybe before entering a city something ought to be worked out there.

Thanks for adding a new word to my vocabulary, didn't know the meaning of "busking" . To the point, I don't think one needed a permission in those times (nowadays you really need it though, at least in our country). Furthermore, the expansion shouldn't become too complex I think.

- would a big follower count as 2 troubadours when occupying a city?

Hmm I didn't think about that one, but yes, let's say it's a musical duo!

- can there be more troubadours in one city?

Yes, if there are multiple Troubadour icons in one city, there can be multiple Troubadours in it.

- why leave a city after 3 turns? You might want to consider the troubadour must travel on when drawing a new lute tile only.

The original idea was that the inhabitants of the city get bored with the same Troubadour if he/she stays too long. For strategic purposes, this rule makes placing a Troubadour a bit of a gamble, since you have to remove it pretty soon.

[Trebuchet]

I agree to not make it too complicated, there is an expansion using the connecting road method, i just cant remember which one..
anyway, i was probably editting when you replied, you might have missed the edit, i'll add it here:

the aim is to get money to travel on. In carc language that should be points. After so much points earned the troubadour moves on. Maybe use your note tokens to be placed on vacant city tiles (of the city where the troubadour is active) each tile representing an area/distict where the troubadour has performed. Each token 1 point, 1 token to be laid down per turn for as long as a) there are vacant city tiles to place a note token, b) no new lute tile is drawn, the troubadour must then leave the city. Give lets say 10ea note tokens per player, the player that finishes a city gets the tokens (also when not occupied by that player). furthermore: when 2 troubadours are occupying a city, they compete obviously for the uncovered citydistricts, when there are no more tiles vacant to place a note token, no points in that city can be scored.

[Ailurus]

Ok I like the new mechanism, but I'm not sure whether the placement of a Troubadour remains enough of a gamble...

Indeed, the follower (normal or big) can be placed as a Troubadour in a city or on a road (on a tile which contains a Troubadour icon, to be precise) which might already be occupied by someone else. This is a rather big advantage for the newcomer, so he/she is only allowed to stay temporarily.

As an example:

Say, player A has built a large city, occupied only by player A himself (normal follower). Player B has tried to connect his smaller city to this larger city, but player A is cunning enough not to allow this. Then, player B picks a city tile with a Troubadour on it, and deploys it such that it is adjacent to the big city from player A. Although this city is already occupied by player A, player B is allowed to place a Troubadour. He chooses to place his large follower as a Troubadour (in fact it represents two Troubadours), so now player B has the majority in the city!

According to the original rules, player B can only stay for a maximum of 3 turns. After this, he has to move on. If the city isn't finished by then, player A once again has the majority in the city.

[Trebuchet]

Okay well that's what i understood from your previous posts, so there's no change there.

Point is, any player can always place a city tile in a cunning way. Meeple it big aiming to attach two city parts. Plus in that case stay for as long as this has been accomplished. Tower influence to capture another follower not taken into account here.
To me it seems a missed chance to have a troubadour used for that purpose alone. Mind you; i like the idea of outnumbering a knight in a city with a troubadour, but while its there in the city it could as well earn you some points, hence the idea of note tokens on city tiles.

I suppose i think the basic idea for the expansion is too good to just use it for a gamble aming at controlling a city in 3 turns. To me it seems there can be much more play in there.

 

[Ailurus]

Ok, I've been re-reading the topic and I came up with these new rules. I had some difficulties translating them from my scratch paper (in Dutch), so please ask if something isn't clear

The Troubadour

Placement:

• If you deploy a follower (knight) on a city tile, and this tile contains a Troubadour Icon (anywhere on the tile), the knight becomes a Troubadour. Mutatis mutandis for roads.
• After the tile is placed, you are allowed to deploy a follower (Troubadour) on it -- even though there might already be a follower from somebody else on the city or road, you may place one yourself.
• Only your normal followers and your big follower have sufficient musical qualities to become Troubadours. A big Troubadour counts as two normal followers, as usual.
• Players can thus have multiple Troubadours, and multiple Troubadours can reside in one city or on one road.

Ok, now the Troubadour is in place. Rules:

• Every turn you are allowed to place 1 (or 2?) note tokens in the city or on the road your Troubadour is on. You should place these tokens adjacent to your already existing own tokens. The first token should be placed on the tile your Troubadour is on.
• If the entire city or road is filled with note tokens, the Troubadour should move as soon as it's your turn. This is only possible if there is an unoccupied Troubadour tile somewhere on the board, which is part of an unfinished city or road. If there isn't such a place, the Troubadour returns to your stock. Exception: As usual, you first have to deploy a tile. If you can deploy this tile to the city or road in which the Troubadour resides, the Troubadour may stay.
• When a new Troubadour tile is placed without a Troubadour on it, then the Troubadour with the least number of tokens should immediately move there. If multiple Troubadours share the same least number of tokens, then the Troubadour whose turn is first should move.
• In your turn, you are allowed to move your Troubadour(s). However, there is an extra condition. A Troubadour from a city should move to a road, and vice versa. Again, this new place should of course contain a Troubadour Icon, and should be part of an unfinished city or road. You can also put a Troubadour back in your stock.

About the tokens:

• If your Troubadour moves, you remove his/her note tokens from the city or road and place them in your stock again.
• If someone finishes a city or road while there are note tokens in it (and thus there are still Troubadours), this person gets as many points as there are tokens. The tokens are returned to their owners.

Every player has 10 Note Tokens.

[Ailurus]

Some additional rules regarding other expansions:

• You can also deploy a Troubadour when using a portal.
• The dragon doesn't eat the tokens.
• When a Troubadour is removed by the dragon or with a tower, the tokens return to their owner. I think it would become a little messy if your captor (tower) would also capture your tokens.
• It is allowed to place a Troubadour on a bridge.
• A Troubadour cannot reside in a castle, since the castle would obscure the Troubadour Icon and possible tokens.
• When using the mini-expansion The Plague, you cannot place tokens on tiles which already hold Plague Tokens. Furthermore, if a Plague Token is placed on a tile which holds a Note Token, this token goes back to his owner.
• When using Crop Circles, you can also add a Troubadour if there is an unoccupied Troubadour Tile (i.e. with a Troubadour Icon on it)
• When using the newest mini-expansion The Follower/The Phantom, you could in theory place 2 Troubadours at once, if there are 2 separate cities or road on the tile.

Couldn't think of more additional rules, if you have one, please add it!

[Trebuchet]

tokens:

[Ailurus]

I like the tokens, nice work Trebuchet! Merit point well deserved . What do you think about the new version of the rules?

TODO: Find useful tiles for this expansion. I think 12 tiles would be a good number. Furthermore, most of them should have both a city and road on it (because the Troubadour icon is valid for the entire tile). I'll look into it today, but as always, any contributions are surely welcome.

[Trebuchet]

I like the tokens, nice work Trebuchet! Merit point well deserved .

Thank you!

What do you think about the new version of the rules?

In general i don’t quite understand now what the purpose is of a troubadour. It doesn’t seem to do a lot for me according to these rules. I prefer to see the troubadour earning a player points by allowing that player to place tokens on vacant city (or road) tiles once a troubadour tile is part of a city (or road). Each one token is one point. At the same time, for as long as the troubadour is present in the city –
#1: up until a new troubadour tile is drawn or
#2: up until all tokens are out of players’supply, or
#3 when no more vacant tiles are left to place a token there
– the troubadour can be outnumbering knights in the city or thiefs on a road. An advantage in aiming to complete that city (your initial idea). If you can make the token placement optional, then the troubadour can stay even longer and #3 can thus be influenced by simply leaving tiles un-tokened (earning no more points in these turns).

So, i’d say there should be more focus and a good description on the use of tokens in your rules. Maybe other boarders have any ideas?

Every turn you are allowed to place 1 (or 2?) note tokens in the city or on the road your Troubadour is on. You should place these tokens adjacent to your already existing own tokens. The first token should be placed on the tile your Troubadour is on.

I’d stick to one token per turn.

If the entire city or road is filled with note tokens, the Troubadour should move as soon as it's your turn. This is only possible if there is an unoccupied Troubadour tile somewhere on the board, which is part of an unfinished city or road.

This is okay, pretty much like the wagon movement, you might want to consider adjacent as well.

If there isn't such a place, the Troubadour returns to your stock. Exception: As usual, you first have to deploy a tile. If you can deploy this tile to the city or road in which the Troubadour resides, the Troubadour may stay.

Sounds good. Q. Can a player lay a token in that same turn?

When a new Troubadour tile is placed without a Troubadour on it, then the Troubadour with the least number of tokens should immediately move there. If multiple Troubadours share the same least number of tokens, then the Troubadour whose turn is first should move.

That’s ok i suppose, but you might want to keep that simpler. Have the player who draws a troubadour tile always move there if he/she has a troubadour active already, regardless the number of tokens left.

Q: what happens to the tokens that were placed already?  Are they left behind to become available for anyone completing city (or road)? eg. once someone is out of tokens he can get some back only by completing (another players’) city. Or you can leave them till the end of the game where they are, or the player can take them off when finishing road/city and lay them aside until the game is over earning points for the most tokens taken. Many posibilities here to choose from.

In your turn, you are allowed to move your Troubadour(s). However, there is an extra condition. A Troubadour from a city should move to a road, and vice versa. Again, this new place should of course contain a Troubadour Icon, and should be part of an unfinished city or road. You can also put a Troubadour back in your stock.

If I understand correctly a player can move a troubadour always. In that case you have a #4.
Again, what happens to the tokens left behind and in case you don’t want them used for scoring you have to specify more what are they for exactly.