Fairy on a tile with multiple followers
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Author Topic: Fairy on a tile with multiple followers  (Read 13239 times)
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lionel
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« on: May 31, 2009, 12:29:57 PM »

I have an objection regarding the Carcassonne rules I've read on CarcassonneCentral for when the fairy is on a tile with multiple followers
  * player A draw a tile that has a piece of castle and a piece of field/road/cloyster on it. Player A chooses to put a follower on the castle (the follower is subsequently called a "knight").
  * Later on, player A chooses to put the fairy next to his knight.
  * Later on, player B draws a magic portal tile and decides to put his follower on the same tile where player A put his knight and fairy (player B's follower will be either on the field, road or cloyster of course).
  --> We're now in a situation where the tile has a fairy and 2 followers.

CarcassonneCentral says that a fairy is "directly connected to a follower, not a tile". With this rule, you would therefore think that the fairy only protects the knight from the dragon (and not player B's follower), however the official rules clearly say that "the Dragon will not visit a tile that has the fairy", so there's a clear contradiction here: if the fairy only protects the knight from the dragon, then the dragon should be allowed to visit the tile where the fairy is, so he can eat player B's follower...

I personnaly think that we should stick to the rule which says that the fairy is connected to "a tile", not a particular follower. I think it makes more sense in the case of dragon protection.
Here are the implications with the example above:
a) the fairy gives the 1 extra point to all players who have followers on the tile (at the beginning of the turn)
b) the fairy gives the 3 extra points to all players who have followers on the tile (when the castle is completed for player A, or when the road/cloyster/farm is completed/scored)
c) the fairy protects all followers on the tile from the dragon. This is in my opinion why the rules say to leave the fairy where it is when the castle is completed (because player B still benefit from having the fairy there)

Any objections to that?
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CKorfmann
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2009, 03:41:07 PM »

I think that the second player on the tile is protected by default.  However, the player who placed the fairy gets the bonus points for completing the feature the fairy is on.  If one follower is on a city and another on a road, and the fairy is next to the follower on the city, the follower on the city gets the bonus points for completion, not the follower on the road.  I would think that the same is true for the 1 point bonus on the beginning of your turn.  Since the dragon can't visit a tile with a fairy on it.  The second follower simply benefits from the fairy in that way.  That's my interpretation. 
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Scott
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2009, 04:43:35 PM »

Indeed, the fairy MUST be connected to a follower because somebody has to get the bonus points. You seem to be objecting to the second player being protected, but your solution doesn't change the mechanics of the game, so I don't see what the problem is.
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lionel
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2009, 08:04:31 PM »

Thanks CKorfmann for sharing your interpretation.

I think that the second player on the tile is protected by default.

I think it's just a direct consequence of what's in the official rules: "The Dragon will not visit a tile that has the fairy".
I find it inconsistent to say that a fairy will give bonus points to only one follower but will protect all followers on a tile. The fact is that I don't see anywhere in the official rules where it seems to justify such an argument:
For example you say that
the player who placed the fairy gets the bonus points for completing the feature the fairy is on.  [...] I would think that the same is true for the 1 point bonus on the beginning of your turn.
I re-read the rules and it says that "If a player starts his turn with a follower on the tile where the fairy is, he scores 1 point immediately", it doesn't say "a follower on the same tile and city/cloyster/road where the fairy is"... same for the 3 bonus point, it says "the player whose follower stands on the tile with the fairy scores 3 points for standing there".
I find my interpretation to be more consistent with the rules, which seem to indicate that dragon protection and bonus points are both linked to the tile where the fairy is.

Indeed, the fairy MUST be connected to a follower because somebody has to get the bonus points. You seem to be objecting to the second player being protected, but your solution doesn't change the mechanics of the game, so I don't see what the problem is.

Scott, your assumption that "somebody" has to get the bonus points doesn't necessarly translate into "one unique player gets the bonus points"... In fact the official rules may lead to the opposite, as shown above. Carcassonne has many cases where players share points during the game (same number of knights on a city, etc...), I don't see why bonus points could not be shared... The official rules won't say that the bonus points can be shared, obviously they didn't think about the possibility, but it doesn't say either that a fairy benefits to one and only one follower/player! However it does clearly says to me that the benefits and dragon protection are per tile... That's my reading of the rules anyway...

My solution doesn't change the mechanics of the game, which is why it makes sense, but your solution on the other end gives an interpretation that seems to go against the rules, and therefore changes the mechanics of the game (different point system), and that's what the problem is.
Actually one clear indication of the confusion that your interpretation generates is when I read that "it is recommended to remove the fairy from the board when the city/road/cloyster it is on has been scored, to prevent any confusion", whereas the official rules clearly state that the fairy must stay where it is, for very good reasons indeed: because other followers on its tile benefit from it!

Just trying to be precise here. I love this game and wish it to be as correct as possible, so players don't have to argue about the rules before starting a game (which seems to always happens with those extensions involved!).
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Scott
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 07:55:24 AM »

I definitely want to be doing things correctly according to the rules. Having re-read the Complete Annotated Rules, I'm afraid we may have to go to HiG with this. In the case of both the 1 point or the 3 points, the criteria for receiving them is if the fairy is "standing next to" your follower. It is just the dragon protection which refers to being on the same tile. Because of the semantics here, it is possible that only the follower nearest the fairy scores. It is also possible that the fairy could be on an adjacent tile and still provide the scoring benefit.

Now I compare with the RGG rules, where the wording states that the follower and fairy must be on the same tile. The grammar for the 3-point scoring indicates that they are speaking only of one follower. The grammar for the 1-point scoring doesn't have this problem.

Neither is clear, and it doesn't help that some of us switched to HiG rules so getting a consensus could be a battle.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 06:27:45 PM by Scott » Logged

PellGanesh
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 04:59:18 PM »

Was this issue ever resolved with a rules update. I agree with CKorfmann: the fairy protects the tile, but the one follower gets the points.
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Scott
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2012, 07:32:19 AM »

This has not been resolved yet, but hopefully it will be soon.
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PellGanesh
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 04:43:37 PM »

The 3 points for completing a feature shouldn't be awarded to someone who isn't on the feature. To me this is the clincher for saying that the points are awarded to only the player who claimed the Fairy. Here's a couple scenarios to illustrate:

1. Red Knight claims Fairy. Yellow Thief deploys to same tile (Wagon or Magic Portal). City gets completed and Red Knight claims 3 points. Why would the Yellow Thief get any points from the Fairy when he's sitting on an uncompleted feature? I don't think he would.

2. Yellow Thief claims Fairy. The City that happens to also be on the tile gets completed. I think this one is even more clear cut because there are no players on the tile's completed City. The Yellow Thief gets no points because the Fairy is tied to the follower on the Road.

That's how I see it anyway.
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Scott
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2012, 07:22:16 AM »

I think the question here is not about the 3 points, but about the 1 point bonus just for being next to the fairy.
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PellGanesh
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2012, 03:20:57 PM »

Topic is Fairy on Tile with Multiple Followers, so I'd think both 1-point and 3-point situations are pertinent. IMHO, the answer is the same for both situations. Only the one player gets the points.
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Scott
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2012, 06:31:39 PM »

I've gone back and re-read the rules a third time, this time looking only at the CAR. It seems clear from the CAR that the fairy must be next to your follower for you to receive bonus points, and the fairy protects the entire tile from the dragon. It may not be consistent, but it doesn't have to be either.
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